Illegal Immigration & You
The following is an excerpt from an email conversation in an online forum. I've removed names to protect the privacy of others involved. It started with an off-hand comment by someone (neither of us involved in this conversation) regarding immigration. Many threads were produced, but all of them are probably summed up (minus the more militant "kill all the Mexicans" jackasses who posted) here.
Me:
The subject of illegal immigration is pretty touchy. If you say that they're "illegal immigrants," then the left-leaners will label you a "racist" and spit hatred at you for your bigotry. If you say that they're "migrant workers," then the right-leaners will call you a "liberal" and accuse you of helping them destroy our country.
Well, a Libertarian is neither left nor right. On the subject of illegal immigration, we're right in the middle. Yes, it's illegal
for them to be here. No, it shouldn't be illegal. In a truly free market, labor is a commodity like any other and is also freely traded.
That scares the hell out of most people to hear. Well, we have [a history of] 100+ years of basically open immigration in this nation and it didn't screw us over then (though they did try to blame the great depression on the Irish immigrants, if you'll recall).
ANYWAY, there's a great article on the subject of illegal immigration and how it's just a blind for the real problems in this country. You can read that here: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/antunez.htm
The problem with immigration is NOT the economy, supposedly lost American jobs due to the cheap labor, etc., etc. It's that we live in a nanny state in which our 50% income tax goes into paying for everything under the sun and then some so that we can have "social justice" and "equality."
This paragraph of the article sums it up:
"So, what's the real difference between the immigrants of today and those of the past centuries? Not much. All have come seeking greater individual freedom and economic opportunity. What has changed over that span is the US government and how much it actually meddles in the economy. In the 1800s and early 1900s America was mostly a free market economy with the majority of law abiding, hard working immigrants seeking the chance to participate in and
contribute to a free American economy with plenty of opportunities for advancement. Industrious immigrants worked their way up the economic ladder leaving room at the bottom for newer arrivals to fill. America today has a greater resemblance to a socialist state than its free market beginnings."
Her:
Aaron, that is not true. We did not have open immigration. We had rasonable standards that let most people in, but diseased people, criminals and sundry other very undesirable people were kept out. That changed during the Rooseveldt administration when he ordered Jews fleeing the Nazis to be rejected. Since then it has been somewhat harder for legal immigration, but illegal immigration has been rampant. I like immigrants because the increase the vitality of the nation, but I oppose amnesty for illegals because if the do not respect our laws, they are already halfway to being criminals. I know it is not all of them, but without some control, we will get the worst coming in.
Me:
The only "criminals" they kept out were the notorious ones. Otherwise, they had no way of knowing the person was a criminal. That means their "filter" was ineffective and basically nonexistent.
From the early 1700s to the mid 1800s there were NO checks of incoming passengers on ships, nor was there any "paperwork" requirement or other application for citizenship.
Her:
Aaron, we are living in a very different age. During the 1700's & 1800's most of the people coming here were fleeing oppresive governments. The reason there was no paperwork is governments did not have any on most of their people, apart from the nobility and leading citizens. The rest of the population were mere serfs. Today, that is far less true. While some oppressive governments still exist, the largest reason for coming to America is economic opportunity. The filter is very effective for screening out criminals when the legal process is used. We are not living in a bygone era, but rather in a dangerous time that requires prudence.
Furthermore, the ability of the nation to preserve the liberties we all cherish is a function of controlling the dilution of our culture. English speaking is only one function. Many people are coming from countries where they could not own a gun, so they naturally accept that people should not own a gun, despite learning our constitution and the 2nd amendment
better than our school children today. Again, we need prudence and time to asssimilate people from other lands. A glut of anything always produces a natural counter effect.
Me:
This, to me, is heavy-handed thinking brought on by the McCarthy era and the general attitude of the mid 1900s.
Were we to have a truly free economy, truly free (and fair) trade, and truly libertarian foreign relations (i.e. NONE except economic), we'd have no reason to fear anyone coming here for whatever reason they have.
We didn't have those fears in the 17-1800s and we shouldn't have them now.
Instead, we have an oppressive government, an oppressive market (thanks to government), an oppressive economy (thanks again to gov't), and oppressive relations with foreign nations (thanks to a colonialist gov't).
We as a [should be THE] people have NOT done our duty to oversee our gov't's doings and, therefore, have failed to keep it from becoming what it is today.
If you've read "The People's Pottage" by Garett Garrett, you know that in the 1930s, Americans still commonly referred to government as "our government." By the 1950s, that was replaced with "the govenrment" as if it was an entity all its own and not controlled or owned by the individual American.
We need to take the government BACK and make it OUR government again. To do this, we need to shed these stupid ideas of fighting left-wing and right-wing, fighting individual tree branches (like immigration) and instead go for the root.
Immigration is only one, small issue in the face of many others. All of them are connected to the same tree of oppression, which needs to be chopped down.
It's amazing to me how socialists can work together so well to undermine our government and even our way of yhinking. Meanwhile, conservatives of all types (fiscal, gov't, libertarians, etc.) can't agree on anything to work together - we're too busy nitpicking over our details..."You are pro abortion, I can't have anything to do with your protests" "you are pro-immigration, I can't have anything to do with your protests" "you are anti-war-in-Iraq, I can't
have..." and so forth.
IT'S ALL BULLSHIT.
This is why freedom is destined to die in this nation. Not one of us who espouses true freedom can do anything and the groups of us who do so are innefectual because we're all disparate.
This is why the fascist power-mongering in current gov't will soon finish us all off. Individuals standing on the doorstep shooting it out with the jackboots will save nothing adn will never be mentioned beyond a three-word blurb in the evening news.
We're all dead.
I plan to die on my porch when they come for me because I have no other choice. I will not bow to their yoke and I cannot find enough others to stand with me to make a real difference. Thereofore, I have one choice left...I will die on my front porch and be nothing more than a news blurb like so many others.
-----
Got comments? Email me, punk!
Me:
The subject of illegal immigration is pretty touchy. If you say that they're "illegal immigrants," then the left-leaners will label you a "racist" and spit hatred at you for your bigotry. If you say that they're "migrant workers," then the right-leaners will call you a "liberal" and accuse you of helping them destroy our country.
Well, a Libertarian is neither left nor right. On the subject of illegal immigration, we're right in the middle. Yes, it's illegal
for them to be here. No, it shouldn't be illegal. In a truly free market, labor is a commodity like any other and is also freely traded.
That scares the hell out of most people to hear. Well, we have [a history of] 100+ years of basically open immigration in this nation and it didn't screw us over then (though they did try to blame the great depression on the Irish immigrants, if you'll recall).
ANYWAY, there's a great article on the subject of illegal immigration and how it's just a blind for the real problems in this country. You can read that here: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/antunez.htm
The problem with immigration is NOT the economy, supposedly lost American jobs due to the cheap labor, etc., etc. It's that we live in a nanny state in which our 50% income tax goes into paying for everything under the sun and then some so that we can have "social justice" and "equality."
This paragraph of the article sums it up:
"So, what's the real difference between the immigrants of today and those of the past centuries? Not much. All have come seeking greater individual freedom and economic opportunity. What has changed over that span is the US government and how much it actually meddles in the economy. In the 1800s and early 1900s America was mostly a free market economy with the majority of law abiding, hard working immigrants seeking the chance to participate in and
contribute to a free American economy with plenty of opportunities for advancement. Industrious immigrants worked their way up the economic ladder leaving room at the bottom for newer arrivals to fill. America today has a greater resemblance to a socialist state than its free market beginnings."
Her:
Aaron, that is not true. We did not have open immigration. We had rasonable standards that let most people in, but diseased people, criminals and sundry other very undesirable people were kept out. That changed during the Rooseveldt administration when he ordered Jews fleeing the Nazis to be rejected. Since then it has been somewhat harder for legal immigration, but illegal immigration has been rampant. I like immigrants because the increase the vitality of the nation, but I oppose amnesty for illegals because if the do not respect our laws, they are already halfway to being criminals. I know it is not all of them, but without some control, we will get the worst coming in.
Me:
The only "criminals" they kept out were the notorious ones. Otherwise, they had no way of knowing the person was a criminal. That means their "filter" was ineffective and basically nonexistent.
From the early 1700s to the mid 1800s there were NO checks of incoming passengers on ships, nor was there any "paperwork" requirement or other application for citizenship.
Her:
Aaron, we are living in a very different age. During the 1700's & 1800's most of the people coming here were fleeing oppresive governments. The reason there was no paperwork is governments did not have any on most of their people, apart from the nobility and leading citizens. The rest of the population were mere serfs. Today, that is far less true. While some oppressive governments still exist, the largest reason for coming to America is economic opportunity. The filter is very effective for screening out criminals when the legal process is used. We are not living in a bygone era, but rather in a dangerous time that requires prudence.
Furthermore, the ability of the nation to preserve the liberties we all cherish is a function of controlling the dilution of our culture. English speaking is only one function. Many people are coming from countries where they could not own a gun, so they naturally accept that people should not own a gun, despite learning our constitution and the 2nd amendment
better than our school children today. Again, we need prudence and time to asssimilate people from other lands. A glut of anything always produces a natural counter effect.
Me:
This, to me, is heavy-handed thinking brought on by the McCarthy era and the general attitude of the mid 1900s.
Were we to have a truly free economy, truly free (and fair) trade, and truly libertarian foreign relations (i.e. NONE except economic), we'd have no reason to fear anyone coming here for whatever reason they have.
We didn't have those fears in the 17-1800s and we shouldn't have them now.
Instead, we have an oppressive government, an oppressive market (thanks to government), an oppressive economy (thanks again to gov't), and oppressive relations with foreign nations (thanks to a colonialist gov't).
We as a [should be THE] people have NOT done our duty to oversee our gov't's doings and, therefore, have failed to keep it from becoming what it is today.
If you've read "The People's Pottage" by Garett Garrett, you know that in the 1930s, Americans still commonly referred to government as "our government." By the 1950s, that was replaced with "the govenrment" as if it was an entity all its own and not controlled or owned by the individual American.
We need to take the government BACK and make it OUR government again. To do this, we need to shed these stupid ideas of fighting left-wing and right-wing, fighting individual tree branches (like immigration) and instead go for the root.
Immigration is only one, small issue in the face of many others. All of them are connected to the same tree of oppression, which needs to be chopped down.
It's amazing to me how socialists can work together so well to undermine our government and even our way of yhinking. Meanwhile, conservatives of all types (fiscal, gov't, libertarians, etc.) can't agree on anything to work together - we're too busy nitpicking over our details..."You are pro abortion, I can't have anything to do with your protests" "you are pro-immigration, I can't have anything to do with your protests" "you are anti-war-in-Iraq, I can't
have..." and so forth.
IT'S ALL BULLSHIT.
This is why freedom is destined to die in this nation. Not one of us who espouses true freedom can do anything and the groups of us who do so are innefectual because we're all disparate.
This is why the fascist power-mongering in current gov't will soon finish us all off. Individuals standing on the doorstep shooting it out with the jackboots will save nothing adn will never be mentioned beyond a three-word blurb in the evening news.
We're all dead.
I plan to die on my porch when they come for me because I have no other choice. I will not bow to their yoke and I cannot find enough others to stand with me to make a real difference. Thereofore, I have one choice left...I will die on my front porch and be nothing more than a news blurb like so many others.
-----
Got comments? Email me, punk!
posted by Aaron Turpen @ 4:52 AM
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